Ding Lei
“Because Ding Lei is just a big kid, I don’t feel comfortable leaving so much money in his hands, even though the stock price proves I may have sold incorrectly” — Duan Yongping (2018-09-30)
👤 Basic Information
- Identity: Founder and CEO of 网易
- Relationship with Duan Yongping: Friend of 段永平; Duan Yongping was an important early investor in NetEase
- Duan Yongping’s evaluation: Big kid (not derogatory) — pure, doesn’t scheme against others, great to be friends with; “a person with great insight”
💡 Duan Yongping’s Evaluation of Ding Lei
“Because Ding Lei is just a big kid, I don’t feel comfortable leaving so much money in his hands, even though the stock price proves I may have sold incorrectly.” — Duan Yongping (Source: Duan Yongping Investment Q&A Record (Investment Logic Volume), 2018-09-30)
“Calling Ding Lei a big kid is absolutely not meant as derogatory! ‘Big kid’ means that while he is an adult, he is very pure, doesn’t scheme against others, and is great to be friends with. As for selling most of the NetEase shares, facts have proven this was wrong, haha. Although at that time the sale was to switch to Yahoo, and later switched again to Apple, it seems like keeping them all until today might have yielded slightly better returns.” — Duan Yongping (Source: Duan Yongping Investment Q&A Record (Investment Logic Volume), 2018-10-05)
“Ding Lei is a person with great insight.” — Duan Yongping (Source: Duan Yongping Investment Q&A Record (Investment Logic Volume), 2010-03-18)
💡 Key Conversations Between Duan Yongping and Ding Lei
Persuading Ding Lei Not to Sell NetEase Cheaply
Duan Yongping once persuaded Ding Lei not to sell 网易 to Sina at 0.5 today):
“Objectively speaking, in my personal memory, if I ever helped NetEase or Ding Lei, it was probably only this conversation from back then — persuading him not to sell NetEase to Sina when the price was 0.5 today) per share.” (Source: Duan Yongping Investment Q&A Record (Investment Logic Volume), 2011-01-11)
Duan Yongping’s judgment: Even without this conversation, Ding Lei probably wouldn’t have sold anyway, “because he only discussed this matter with me precisely because he didn’t want to sell.”
About Media Misinterpretation
There is an online rumor that “Duan Yongping asked Ding Lei in return: What would you do after selling the company? Ding Lei suddenly realized and decided to abandon the portal model” — Duan Yongping clarified that this was fabricated by media:
“So sometimes media is quite scary. In my memory, this conversation did happen, but the ‘sudden realization’ after the conversation was completely fabricated by someone who didn’t know how else to spin it.” (Source: Duan Yongping Investment Q&A Record (Investment Logic Volume), 2011-01-11)
💡 Ding Lei and Cash Management Issues
One important observation Duan Yongping had about Ding Lei concerns the problem of excessive cash on 网易’s balance sheet. This also became one of his important criteria for evaluating “good companies”:
“I remember telling Brother Ding long ago that NetEase’s biggest problem might be having too much cash. The cash now is obviously much more than back then, but Ding Lei seems not to have made any major mistakes because of having so much cash, which is a very difficult thing to achieve. Even Old Ba (Buffett) said before that he tended to make mistakes when he had too much cash.” (Source: Duan Yongping Investment Q&A Record (Investment Logic Volume), 2011-12-02)
“Good companies are those that know how to spend money. In this regard, NetEase isn’t quite a good company — there’s too much cash sitting on its books. Cash that sits unused depreciates!” (Source: Duan Yongping Investment Q&A Record (Investment Logic Volume), 2014-06-06)
❓ Selected Q&A
Q: Why sell NetEase?
A: Because Ding Lei is just a big kid, I don’t feel comfortable leaving so much money in his hands, even though the stock price proves I may have sold incorrectly. (Source: Duan Yongping Investment Q&A Record (Investment Logic Volume), 2018-09-30)
Q: What is NetEase’s biggest problem?
A: I remember telling Brother Ding long ago that NetEase’s biggest problem might be having too much cash. The cash now is obviously much more than back then, but Ding Lei seems not to have made any major mistakes because of having so much cash, which is a very difficult thing to achieve. Even Old Ba (Buffett) said before that he tended to make mistakes when he had too much cash. (Source: Duan Yongping Investment Q&A Record (Investment Logic Volume), 2011-12-02)
Q: What do you think about NetEase’s cash management issue?
A: Good companies are those that know how to spend money. In this regard, NetEase isn’t quite a good company — there’s too much cash sitting on its books. Cash that sits unused depreciates! Moutai doesn’t do particularly well on this point either, although compared to those below them they still have plenty of “buffer”. (Source: Duan Yongping Investment Q&A Record (Investment Logic Volume), 2014-06-06)
Q: Will Ding Lei do a privatization?
A: Ding Lei won’t do something so foolish. (Source: Duan Yongping Investment Q&A Record (Investment Logic Volume), 2011-10-19)
Q: How did you discover NetEase back then?
A: It was through a chance opportunity that I learned about NetEase — there was some luck involved. Besides Tencent, I haven’t looked at other gaming companies. I always wanted to invest in Tencent but only did so last year. (Source: Duan Yongping Investment Q&A Record (Investment Logic Volume), 2019-03-16)
Q: How do you judge whether NetEase’s management is trustworthy?
A: This question is not easy to answer because there is no simple solution. However, you can imagine all the people (or companies) you know well, and you’ll realize that in many cases you actually can judge who you can trust and who you absolutely cannot trust. This kind of judgment is not sufficient, but probabilistically it is very important. (Source: Duan Yongping Investment Q&A Record (Investment Logic Volume), 2012-05-22)
📖 Investment Insights
Complete Logic for Selling NetEase
Duan Yongping sold most of his 网易 shares for two reasons:
- Opportunity cost: Needed to switch to GE and Yahoo (later switched again to 苹果)
- Management factor: Concerns about Ding Lei’s ability to manage large amounts of cash
But Duan Yongping later admitted: “Facts have proven this was wrong, haha… if I had kept them all until today, the returns seem like they would have been slightly better.” This shows that even investors like Duan Yongping can make decisions that prove less than optimal in hindsight due to judgments about management.
Cash Management Is an Important Criterion for Good Companies
Using NetEase as a case study, Duan Yongping distilled an important principle: good companies must know how to spend money. This principle later became one of his key criteria for evaluating 苹果’s share buybacks — Apple taking on debt to buy back shares exemplifies “knowing how to spend money”.
The Importance of Recognizing People
Duan Yongping said “it was through a chance opportunity that I learned about NetEase — there was some luck involved” — this shows that even Duan Yongping sometimes relies on luck to discover good companies. But after discovery, deep understanding of management (“Ding Lei is a person with great insight”) is the fundamental reason he could hold for the long term.
🔗 Related Notes
Related People 段永平 · 巴菲特 Related Companies 网易 Related Concepts 卖出逻辑 · 平常心 · 长期主义 · 未来现金流折现 Related Topics 段永平的经典投资案例 · 卖出的逻辑：段永平为什么很少卖
丁磊
“因为丁磊就是个大孩子，那么多钱放他手里不放心，虽然股价证明我可能卖错了” — 段永平（2018-09-30）
👤 基本信息
💡 段永平对丁磊的评价
“因为丁磊就是个大孩子，那么多钱放他手里不放心，虽然股价证明我可能卖错了。” — 段永平（来源：段永平投资问答录(投资逻辑篇)，2018-09-30）
“说丁磊是个大孩子绝对不是贬义啊！大孩子的意思是虽然是大人，但非常单纯，不会算计人，做朋友很好啊。至于卖掉大部分网易股票，事实证明也是不对的哈，虽然当时卖是为了换Yahoo，后来又都换了苹果，但要都留到今天似乎收益好像还要好点。” — 段永平（来源：段永平投资问答录(投资逻辑篇)，2018-10-05）
“丁磊是个很有悟性的人。” — 段永平（来源：段永平投资问答录(投资逻辑篇)，2010-03-18）
💡 段永平与丁磊的关键对话
劝阻丁磊不要贱卖网易
段永平曾劝阻丁磊不要在2美元（相当于现在0.5美元）一股时把网易卖给新浪：
“客观讲，个人记忆当中，如果我对网易或丁磊有过帮助的话，那可能就只有当年的这段对话，那就是劝他不要在0.5）一股的时候把网易卖给新浪。“（来源：段永平投资问答录(投资逻辑篇)，2011-01-11）
段永平的判断：即使没有这段对话，丁磊也不大可能会卖，“因为他就是因为不想卖才会和我聊起这事的”。
关于媒体的误读
网上流传”段永平反问丁磊：卖了公司之后干吗？丁磊如梦初醒，决定放弃门户模式”——段永平澄清这是媒体杜撰：
“所以说媒体有时候很可怕。在我的记忆当中，这段对话是有的，但对话后的’如梦初醒’则完全是别人不知道如何杜撰出来的。“（来源：段永平投资问答录(投资逻辑篇)，2011-01-11）
💡 丁磊与现金管理问题
段永平对丁磊的一个重要观察，是关于网易账上现金过多的问题。这也成为段永平评价”好公司”的重要标准之一：
“记得很久以前我就跟丁老大说网易的最大问题可能是现金太多。现在的现金显然已经比那个时候要多多了，但丁磊似乎没有因为有这么多现金而犯什么大错，这是非常不容易的事情。连老巴都说以前他现金一多就容易犯错。“（来源：段永平投资问答录(投资逻辑篇)，2011-12-02）
“好公司是知道怎么花钱的那些公司。这点上网易不算好公司，账上躺太多现金。账上的现金不用是会贬值的！“（来源：段永平投资问答录(投资逻辑篇)，2014-06-06）
❓ 精选问答
问：为什么卖网易？
答：因为丁磊就是个大孩子，那么多钱放他手里不放心，虽然股价证明我可能卖错了。（来源：段永平投资问答录(投资逻辑篇)，2018-09-30）
问：网易的最大问题是什么？
答：记得很久以前我就跟丁老大说网易的最大问题可能是现金太多。现在的现金显然已经比那个时候要多多了，但丁磊似乎没有因为有这么多现金而犯什么大错，这是非常不容易的事情。连老巴都说以前他现金一多就容易犯错。（来源：段永平投资问答录(投资逻辑篇)，2011-12-02）
问：网易的现金管理问题怎么看？
答：好公司是知道怎么花钱的那些公司。这点上网易不算好公司，账上躺太多现金。账上的现金不用是会贬值的！茅台在这点上做得也不太好，虽然他们比下还有很多”余”。（来源：段永平投资问答录(投资逻辑篇)，2014-06-06）
问：丁磊会不会做私有化？
答：丁磊不会干这种傻事的。（来源：段永平投资问答录(投资逻辑篇)，2011-10-19）
问：当年是怎么发现网易的？
答：是偶然机会了解网易的，多少有点运气。没看过其他游戏公司除了腾讯，一直很想投腾讯但直到去年才投了一些。（来源：段永平投资问答录(投资逻辑篇)，2019-03-16）
问：怎么判断网易管理层是否诚信？
答：这个问题不容易回答，因为没有简单的解。不过，你可以想象一下你认识的所有熟悉的人（或者公司），你会发现实际上很多情况下你是可以判断谁你能信得过谁你绝对信不过的。这种判断不是充分的，但概率上很重要。（来源：段永平投资问答录(投资逻辑篇)，2012-05-22）
📖 投资启示
卖出网易的完整逻辑
段永平卖出大部分网易股票有两个层面的原因：
- 机会成本：需要换GE和Yahoo（后来又换成苹果）
- 管理层因素：对丁磊管理大量现金的能力有所担忧
但段永平事后承认：“事实证明也是不对的哈……要都留到今天似乎收益好像还要好点。“这说明即使是段永平这样的投资者，也会因为对管理层的判断而做出事后看来不完全正确的决策。
现金管理是好公司的重要标准
段永平用网易的案例，提炼出了一条重要原则：好公司要知道怎么花钱。这条原则后来成为他评价苹果回购的重要标准——苹果举债回购，是”知道怎么花钱”的体现。
识人的重要性
段永平说”是偶然机会了解网易的，多少有点运气”——这说明即使是段永平，也有靠运气发现好公司的时候。但发现之后，对管理层的深度了解（“丁磊是个很有悟性的人”）才是他能长期持有的根本原因。
🔗 相关笔记
相关人物 段永平 · 巴菲特 相关公司 网易 相关概念 卖出逻辑 · 平常心 · 长期主义 · 未来现金流折现 相关主题 段永平的经典投资案例 · 卖出的逻辑：段永平为什么很少卖